Tuesday 20 March 2012

WANTED: An Editor Who Wants Me - Guest Post by Kelly Stone Gamble

Today I am hosting the fantastic Kelly Stone Gamble, bringing us an excellent rant on editors. Let's not get started on the debate about whether writers need an editor. For the sake of argument, let us assume they do. But I've met my share of people who don't like editors or, even, *gasp* think they are the spawn of evil, and Kelly may have hit on a few points which led to the scarring of said individuals...
~

Every writer needs an editor. No matter how good you think your work is, how engaging your neighbor found the plot or how interesting and complex your mother finds the protagonist, a second (or third, or fourth) set of eyes to go over it is necessary.  I get it. I agree with it. As a person who spends a lot of time editing for others, I would never claim that I don't need one myself; and I've been looking.  

In my quest to find that perfect freelancer who is going to 'take my work to the next level', I've discovered something very important.  Yes, writers need editors.  But, guess what? Editors need writers, too.  And because you need me (that is ME-as in Self Appointed Representative of Writers Seeking Editors), I am going to tell you a few things that you have to do to gain my business.  Oh, yes, freelance editing is a business, and I, SARWSE, am a customer.  

1. Have a website. I know, it requires that you actually spend a few hours to get it going, but, look at it this way.  Amazon has a website. Billy Bob's Discount Books does not.  I do not shop at Billy Bob's.  I know nothing about him.  I'm not really sure he isn't some guy in Arkansas selling me books from the local library.  I'm going to trust you with my baby, one that took me years to produce.  The least you can do is have a storefront for me to look at.  If you don't have a website, go no further in this reading, because trust me, I have gone no further in considering forking over my money and my manuscript. 

2. Make your prices public.  I realize that until you actually see someone's work, you have no idea the amount of time it will take to make it sing.  However, we, as shoppers, need to know what we 'may' be looking at.  "Send me a few page and then we'll discuss the price" doesn't work for me.  That is the equivalent of going into a store and trying on that perfect dress without knowing what you are going to pay for it until you check out.  I look at the price before I even try it on.  That's just me. Here's a suggestion: three (or four) tiered pricing.  If I decide to send it to you for a critique only at price A, feel free to tell me that you 'highly suggest' I let you line edit the entire manuscript at price C.  I can live with that.

3. Prices - Part Two.  Hourly rate versus price per page or word.  Think about this for a minute. I know how many pages and how many words are in my manuscript. I do not know how slow or how fast you are at doing your work.  

4. Give me a timeframe. I visited a website today that said: It will take at least six weeks to edit your manuscript, longer depending on the length, starting on the date that your work comes up in our queue. We cannot estimate when that will be. Okay. So I send you my money, and whenever my turn comes up, you will let me know, and then at a minimum, six more weeks.  Can I count on seeing it, let's say, by the year 2016?  You've got to do a little better than that.  Here's an idea.  On the website (smiley face) put a statement like this: Due to the high demand of our services, we are currently running at an eight to ten week turnaround time.  Oh, I like that. You are in high demand and I have another book to write, so go ahead, put me in the queue. 

5. Back to the website. If you have several spelling and/or grammar errors on your website, chances are, you aren't going to make my list of people to trust my work to.  I can make those errors all by myself, I need someone who will find them, not make them.  Professional presentation, remember, this is a business. 

6. Be yourself.  I have to say, I saw a freelance editor's blog the other day that made me laugh, in a good way.  She made some snarky remark about cats, and I thought, "this is someone I could talk to."  

7. Be honest about your interests.  If you don't like historical fiction or erotica or dragons or zombies, that is fine, and it doesn't necessarily mean you will get scratched from the list.  Maybe I am convinced that my Victorian era, sex-starved, zombie dragon is so awesome that I can win you over.  "I will edit anything" is fine, but I would like to know what makes you tick.  We are, however, going to be entering into a relationship.  Sometimes opposites attract. Who knows. 

8. Tell me about your work. Preferably let your clients tell me.  I called Billy Bob's the other day, and his mother told me that he's sold a truckload of books to people as far north as Sioux City, Iowa.  She didn't know how many actual books he has sold, how long it took him to deliver those books and had no contact information for any of his customers. You may have over a thousand clients, but how many were manuscripts? Blog posts? Journal articles?  Can you get some references or blurbs from some of those customers? Are they willing to let me contact them?  A great place for me to see these is, of course, your website. (Insert happy face)

Okay, I know, this is a lot to ask.  Or is it?  I want an editor that I can form a relationship with because I don't want to have to go looking again.  You, I would assume, would love to have clients that return to you time after time.  

But, in the end, it is your business, and you are free to run it any way you see fit.  

However, I am the one with the check in my hand. 

~

Was that free to run it, or ruin it, any way you see fit? Thanks, Kelly, for your insights and saying the things that somebody has to say - but all too often, nobody will! I've heard some real horror stories about editors, and if those editors had just followed Kelly's advice, the experience wouldn't have turned out so bad for either party. 

Writers are forever being told writing is a business, but hey, guess what? So is editing. Remember, for every customer who is complaining to your face, nine are bitching behind your back! Word of mouth is a powerful thing. 
 
Kelly Stone Gamble is a freelance writer and author of the historical novel Ragtown.  

You can find Kelly here:



Now I know this is not Flight of the Dragon, where I post a picture of a dragon on every entry, but since Kelly mentioned zombie dragons...


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69 comments:

Dee said...

I like the idea of less ambiguity. It's like selling a house...before you let a potential buyer in to track up your hard earned cleaning, you want to be sure they qualify for the price of the home.

Raine Thomas said...

I LOVE this post! As a (former?) freelance editor, I agree with every point, Kelly. I would never have thought to go into business without a well-done website, and I personally don't work with businesses that don't offer up-front pricing. Well done!

Kelly Gamble said...

Thanks, Raine. I have to say, there are a lot out there that are professional, but some, geez! Billy Bob. :)

Kelly Gamble said...

Exactly!

Tonya C said...

I've offered freelance editing services myself and have struggled with the whole pricing question... which is why I've left off the question of cost on my site. (Though I agree with the per-word charge...) I *want* more of the books I like out on the marketplace, so I'd like to contribute to them being well-done too--if necessary by working out some kind of sliding scale. I've even done some beta reading to help push the "quality work" agenda. On the other hand, I have a day job, it does eat into my free time (or my own writing time!), so there should be some compensation. How do I handle that flexibility without bogging myself down with more work than I can handle?

Otherwise... This is completely on point. (And I'm going to have to make some edits to my editor's page!)
:)

Rachel Thompson said...

Great post, honest as always (are we snark sisters?).

I too list the cost for my services (as a social media consultant) on my BadRedhead Media site. I believe in being up front with folks -- why waste their time or mine? Transparency is critical in this economy IMHO -- though I don't recommend it be on the landing page. Description of services -- fine. How to contact you -- fine. Costs can be on the 2nd page. (It's what I'm working on myself right now).

Spot on, chicas.

Fabulosityreads said...

I'm not a freelance editor yet but have aspirations and this is one of the most educational posts I have ever read. Thank you

Lane Diamond said...

I used to struggle with pricing for clients because they had such different needs, and because I thought in the beginning that a per-word cost was the only way to go. Not so. I now also offer developmental training at an hourly rate, and that has actually proven to be a popular option for writers.

And so, between the two, I can satisfy most clients. But... I also learned another important lesson to solidify that approach: if a writer says she wants the per-word fee for a line and content edit, but her work is... err... not ready for that, and she refuses the developmental training, it's okay for me to just say, "No thanks. I'm afraid we're not a good fit, but best of luck to you."

Not only has that been liberating for me as an editor, but it's made it possible for me to offer a couple of clear-cut, pre-priced options to prospective clients.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

I think there may always need to be some customisation of price when you speak to the editor, but there should be enough guidance on the website to give the writer a reasonable idea of a ballpark figure.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

I also tend not to work with businesses that don't offer upfront pricing. I haven't even got the most basic information I need to compare to other businesses.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

I think it's OK to estimate cost on a case by case basis, as long as there is enough guidance on the website for the customer to have some idea of where the cost is likely to be. The same for timing. As a lawyer, these are issues I often deal with in my day job. The timing WILL depend on how busy I am, but I can give the client a general idea upfront and then a more specific, and firm, deadline when I know the details of their job. And once I give that deadline, I keep it - short of unanticipated disasters!

Ciara Ballintyne said...

I agree the costs needn't be on the front page. I also think there can be some flexibility in a pricing structure to account for exceptional and unusually difficult jobs, but there should be enough information to give a customer a reasonable expectation of costs. Or maybe that's just the lawyer in me... That said, the law firm I work with tries very hard to keep costs down, unlike many law firms.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

I'm sure Kelly will be delighted this assisted you. As am I!

Erica Lucke Dean said...

I happen to be a very happy customer of Kelly's editing services. Oh sure...she made me cry, but in a good way. And if your editor doesn't make you cry now and then, they probably aren't very good at their job. Just sayin'.

Toby Neal said...

Great post and a good editor is worth their weight in gold! No, I won't tell you mine's name!

Lorca Damon said...

I agree wholeheartedly. As a book reviewer for a large book review company, I get paid to read your shit. It was horrible shit. It makes high school angst-ridden broken heart poetry look like Steinbeck. PLEASE get an editor! Society (and the reputations of authors...especially indie authors...EVERYWHERE) are at stake! Or was that steak? I can never remember...

Lorca Damon said...

Wait, just found a style error: not YOUR shit, rather, collective shit. From other people. I'm sure your writing is awesome. It's not even Steinbeck, it's Hemingway. :~)

Kelly Gamble said...

Thanks for clearing that up. Funny, I wasn't concerned that you called my shit shit, I was more impressed that you were getting paid to read my shit. LOL

Kelly Gamble said...

Thanks, Erica. Although I didn't mean to make you cry, I agree, a good editor tells you like it is, without being mean.

Kelly Gamble said...

I'm so glad you liked this. I'd be curious as to how you are going about trying to break in. I'm at twitter @kellysgamble and facebook at Kelly Stone Gamble. Would love to talk to you.

Kelly Gamble said...

Oh, definitely, Rachel and Ciara. You don't need a blinking light or anything that says what your prices are, a tab I can hit is fine. And I hit all the tabs. I want to know all about you.

Kelly Gamble said...

I think it's a matter of is this going to be a part time job eventually or more of a full time business. I started my own business (not editing) in 2000 and spent money in the first year, a lot, never made a dime, and spent quite a bit of my 'spare time' doing it. I didn't start to reap the benefits until the following year, and they were sparse. Then, I had clientele, and more business than I could handle.

Kelly Gamble said...

And I like that, Lane! Think about my buying a dress example above. If, after I tried it on and was okay with the price, I got to the front and the cashier said "hey, I'm not selling that dress to you, because, honey, it just isn't working for you like you think." What a wonderful world it would be--no more muffin tops! Editor/Writer is a business relationship and if you and I aren't seeing things from the same pair of glasses, then I can appreciate your honesty in turning me down as a client a heck of a lot more than I would appreciate you taking my money and just putting a few red marks on the page.

Dionne Lister said...

I am a writer and an editor and as a writer I need an editor and as an editor I need writers - wow I'm in pretty deep. Your post covered it beautifully. I found a fantastic editor and will continue to work with her for any additional books I will hopefully be writing in the future. I had a bad experience with one before that. The first editor took half my money and, after three months, had not delivered anything. I have fired her but, after three weeks, have still not received my money. Is it ok to out her on social media as I would hate for anyone to fall into her trap?

Kelly Gamble said...

I can't even imagine taking 3 months to edit one manuscript. Okay, maybe she has others before you, fine, but again, that is a perfect example of Number 4 above. Let me know if it going to take a year or two. Give me a rough idea, at least. And know that if you tell me 6 weeks and I have given you half the money haven't heard anything from you after 3 months, I will report you to the BBB. No hard feelings, just business---and my money.

Safireblade said...

Kelly, if you write a book about a Victorian era, sex-starved, zombie dragon I will totally read it just to say I did!

Thanks for writing this! Even and especially if you are a new writer navigating the mass of free-lance editors out there is a tough thing.

I have worked with a few editors. Talked to a lot of them. Your point about knowing what genre they prefer is dead on. Yes, sometimes someone not deeply into your target genre is the best for a dozen other reasons.

That is part of the relationship you mentioned. It is the most important thing because as you said this is our baby. The editor I liked best (and if all goes well will always work with) is not a huge fan of my target genre but what that editor bring to the table is openess, wisdom, experience and an understanding of the psychology of the reader. Allowing someone to call you on your bad habits requires having someone you feel you can respect & trust.

Dean Harkness said...

Your Victorian era, sex-starved, zombie dragon would win me over, easy :o)

Amberr Meadows said...

It's nice to actually see a post about editor etiquette. Too often it seems like crappy editors have the upper hand, and a lot of times they kinda suck. Oh, and if you're going to have a website, have a domain YOU own (no blog spot, no blah.wordpress.com) but the real deal to look as professional as possible and as if you are in the editing game "for real". A clean layout is preferable, too. Amongst other things.

Susan Helene Gottfried said...

Kelly, c'mon by. There are no times listed on my site yet 'cause I've only been out of (an enviably early) retirement for a few months. In other words: I could start working with you today.

Barbara said...

Excellent article!

Beth Garland said...

Now I know how to look for an editor for my work. Thanks for the rant, Kelly. Many people needed that.

Janeisaac said...

Fabulous post, Kelly.

The relationship between writer and editor needs to be special - they need to understand each other and read the same genres. I have worked with three different editors on fiction: the first was fabulous and really switched on, the second had no idea about crime fiction (my area) and the third was good - but not as good as the first.

An editor should definitely be up front with their fees and services, but also be able to give reasons for any changes they wish to make to the script (grammar aside). I believe editors are essential to novel writing and a good editor is worth their weight in gold:))

Rebecca Fyfe said...

Kelly - Great post! I agree on all points! I especially like seeing prices quoted on the website.

Mande Matthews said...

My problem with editors (the one's I have found) has been misrepresentation of skill level. It finally dawned on me not all editors are created equal. I'm not sure why I went into the editing arena thinking they were just because they received the training and booked other authors, but I paid a hefty price for the lesson. Finding a good editor--one that knows your genre inside and out, one that is as passionate about editing as you are about writing, one that knows the rules and style like the back of their hand, and one that loves your writing, and can take you to the next level, all while still being affordable for an indie author? Where is this elusive being? I am beginning to wonder if said editors aren't mythic beings? The above zombie dragon seems easier to track down.

Lane Diamond said...

They're (Dare I say "we're?") out there, Mande, but indie authors often think we should work for about $7.00 per hour.

As in all things, you (I mean "you" generally, not personally) get what you pay for.

Erica Lucke Dean said...

Happy tears! No apologizing for that. You made me push deeper into myself to pull out the best I had to give. That's worth a few happy tears don't you think? :)

Justin Bogdanovitch said...

Love the Post, Kelly. Finding a scrupulous editor with great communication skills can be a part of the key to the success of a novel. The very best to you in your search. I was stuck with knowing how expensive someone I hired to edit my first novel (which comes out in November) was ~sorry, I just had to put in my first promo plug here LOL~ without getting a firm answer on how long it would take her to get my book back in my hands with all of her content edits. I'd say it took a good seven months. I knew it wouldn't take two months either, but I wanted to begin the edit process and was anxious. The great thing about this is I would call every two weeks and talk to my editor about what her initial thoughts were, and the communication grew into a friendship. I started writing other work during this long wait, and the time that passed made me look at the book with new eyes. The changes came quickly, and over the time I grew to trust the editor's judgement. Now, I have to find a new editor because she took a job flying back and forth from Rome to NYC, not editing either, but in the publishing world, lucky woman. Thanks for putting all of this out for us to have as a resource.

Carlyle said...

OH gosh dont get me started on Editors - I have had such a bad experience - first I got taken for $300 - as an SAfrican multiply that by 7 - My second editor did a great job , but I find myself weeks before release having to pull back as I found a proof reader , and her and I picked up small things - small things that could hurt the rest of my career. Editing a 330 pg MS is a freaken hard job - I get that - I would never become an editor - ever! The thing is dont take the client if you dont like her work, if you dont see where the client is going. If you dont have passion for the story - just leave it - it does show in the end weather or not the editor actually liked and felt your work.

Kelly Gamble said...

Mande, that's why I think it is so important for an editor to have a lot of references and information about themselves on their website. I don't necessarily agree with Lane's 'you get what you pay for', that would indicate that the more you pay, the better the editor is, and that just isn't true. Freelancers set their own price, so anyone can say 'I charge xxx'. That does not mean they are worth it, it means they think they are worth it. So, again, I want to see if their clients think they are worth it. And you bring up a good point---training. What is this thing called 'training'? I'd like to see that on the website, too. :)

Kelly Gamble said...

It is a business, Amberr, and professionalism is very important. So right.

Kelly Gamble said...

One VESSZD coming right up! I am a bit of a relationship junkie, and it is a relationship. Respect and trust is so important.

Kelly Gamble said...

I agree. If you aren't comfortable with my story for whatever reason, please don't take my money. I won't be offended. Honestly.

Kelly Gamble said...

And you know, Justin, I'm not saying that six-seven months is offensive, either. I have another book to write in the meantime, so rock on. But give me some indication. Plug away, brother.

Kelly Gamble said...

Thanks, Rebecca.

Kelly Gamble said...

I agree, a good one is worth their weight in gold. But it sure is hard to determine if they are worth what they are charging if we have no information about them.

Kelly Gamble said...

I am full of rants. Anytime you need one, you know where to find me. :)

Kelly Gamble said...

Thanks, Barbara!

Kelly Gamble said...

Well, I must go check your site! Thanks for the info!

Kelly Gamble said...

I have a feeling I'm going to be writing this story, Dean. LOL

Celes33 said...

Great post! Glad to say I do most of these already, and can easily incorporate the rest.

Pamela Beason said...

A good post with some great suggestions. I sometimes work as an editor as well as an author. I am very experienced and have to say that I always charge by the hour. The problem is that if the writing is really bad, with a lot of grammatical mistakes and plot issues such as a lack of understanding of point of view, then it can take 30 minutes to edit one page, whereas if the writing is reasonably clean it might take 10 minutes or less. So what I always do is ask for a nominal amount up front (say, 4 hours worth of my time), and when I've spent that money in terms of time, I share what I've done with the author and ask if they want to continue. That way neither of us wastes a lot of money or time. All authors and editors are not good matches, as you obviously know. Best of luck with your writing and editing!

Ciara Ballintyne said...

I agree with all Kelly's points. An editor I know has also led me to understand:

a) There is standard pricing set by some industry body - I forget who it is, but I should check; and
b) An editor should have worked in the industry, not just be a writer who thinks they can charge for beta reading, because that's not on! Qualifications and training a definite must.

And like any professional (lawyer, doctor etc.) you need to find a compatible personality and someone you can trust.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

I absolutely agree there should be more services offered than just a line edit. Not all work is at the standard of being ready for a line edit. And of course any service provider has the ritght to decline to service a client. I call it 'firing' a client LOL. I

've also learned from law that clients would much rather I admit I can't do something than try and do it badly.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

I think a clean layout goes for most things!

Ciara Ballintyne said...

Trust is one of the most critical elements in a service business because you aren't selling a tangible product and you need to trust the person advising you. If you don't trust them, what have you paid for? An opinion no more valuable to you than one you could get on the street.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

I thought of you when Kelly wrote this post. I'll talk to you about the outing. It can be done, but will need to be done carefully.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

Lorca, you are so absolutely correct. I don't read that collective shit anymore because no one is paying me.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

That's definitely one approach. As lawyers, we sometimes use that approach here. The other approach is to offer developmental or mentoring services for people whose work is not at the line edit stage. I think as long as people are ept informed and not slugged with a huge bill unexpectedly at the end, they're often OK.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

Excellent, glad you found it valuable.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

Good points. An editor should be as picky about her clients as a writer is about her editor. If the editor feels it's not the right job for them, they should be turning the job down.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

I think the theme that is coming out here is communication, communication, communication. People will tolerate a lot, including delays and added expense, as long as they kept informed and in control. .

Ciara Ballintyne said...

Hard to make a purchasing decision without purchase costs :-)

Ciara Ballintyne said...

An editing job isn't just a job, it IS a relationship! Good point, Jane.

Ciara Ballintyne said...

Good luck on your quest!

Ciara Ballintyne said...

It rocks, huh? I want to know where I can get one!

Ciara Ballintyne said...

Or at least make you WANT to cry. I haven't cried yet, but mine makes me feel like I should!

Kelly Gamble said...

Right, I've seen the standard pricing chart, which shows a pretty wide range of standard pricing. I saw another good website today that I will share with you, Ciara. It was based on time, but the editor indicated what that translates to, roughly, for page count. That works, too.

Kelly Gamble said...

Yes, that is one approach, not one I personally would be interested in, but I'm sure there are others that would be, and specifically, because I wouldn't want to be slugged with a huge bill at the end as Ciara suggests. I like the editors that do the free page edits up front, and then, I'd also like for them to indicate how long it took them to do that edit. Just me. I'm pretty good at gauging these things.

Kelly Gamble said...

I wish you would include your website. As I said, I really am looking...

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